Dishonoring God & Vets – Flag Folding Ceremony BANNED at ALL 22 National Cemeteries


This is essentially breaking news, it is so outrageous that blood was boiling last evening when it was revealed. The efforts to remove any vestige or mention of God from America has now made it’s way to the funerals of American Veterans.

Last evening at the Restoring Our Heritage Annual Fall Banquet, Keynote Speaker Rees Lloyd, former ACLU attorney and Commander of the American Legion District 21, revealed that a directive was just handed down last week that the FLAG FOLDING CEREMONY at funerals honoring military veterans will be BANNED IMMEDIATELY.

The reason?


Yes, the Separation of Church and State Zealots at the ACLU, who work tirelessly to abolish our First Amendment Right to free exercize, have struck again. This time, they have successfully argued to have the Stars and Stripes Folding Ceremony banned at all 22 United States National Cemetaries as of last week, according to Lloyd. The directive, which comes down through the Executive and mandated by the Department of Veteran Affairs – directs that the Flag Folding Ceremony must be immediately ceased at all funerals at National Cemeteries.


Because the Second, Eleventh and Twelfth Fold have been deemed a breach of the “Separation Clause” of the First Amendment. It is charged that they advocate the Christian Religion according to the complaints filed by the ACLU to the Department of Veterans Affairs. As a result of the complaint – a directive has been handed down to immediately ban the Tradition that the American Legion and Military Honor Guards perform at funerals of military veterans.

This ceremony has been a tradition of American Veterans. If you never knew what the Folding Ceremony represented, these are the the 12 Folds and what they represent. Again, the objection is on the Second, Eleventh and Twelfth folds.

The Stars and Stripes Folding Ceremony:

The first fold of our flag is a symbol of life.

The second fold is a symbol or our belief in the eternal life.

The third fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veteran departing our ranks who gave a portion of his 1ife for the defense of our country to attain peace throughout the world not to have been in vain and shall never be forgotten.

The fourth fold represents our weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to him we turn to in the times of peace as well as in the time of war for his divine guidance.

The fifth fold is a tribute to our country, for in the words of the immortal Stephen Decatur, “Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right, but it is still our Country, right or wrong.”

The sixth fold is where our hearts lie – and it is with our hearts that we pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and the Republic for which it stands, once nation under God indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The seventh fold is a tribute to our armed forces, for it is these same armed forces that we protect our country and our flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of our republic.

The eighth fold is a tribute to the One who entered on the valley of the shadow of death that we see the light of day, and this fold is made to honor Mother, for whom it flies on Mother’s Day.

The ninth fold is a tribute to our womanhood, for it has been through their faith, love and loyalty and devotion that the characters of the men that have made this country great have been molded.

The tenth fold is a tribute to Father, for he too has given of his sons for the defense of our country, since she was first born.

We fold from the stripes toward the stars, for whereas the stripes represent the thirteen original colonies that founded our republic, and they are embodied in the fifty sovereign states represented by the stars, so that the stars cover the stripes.

The eleventh fold for in the eyes of a Hebrew citizen, this represents the lower portion of the Seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies in their eyes the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

The twelfth fold in the eyes of a Christian citizen, this represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies in their eyes God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

When the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost, which reminds us of our national motto, “In God We Trust”.

I cannot think of a final greater insult to our honored Servicemen outside of spitting on the caskets themselves. The men and women who sacrificed to serve this great nation, deserve the honor and tradition we bestow upon our vets for their service at the time of their final resting.

I shouted out during this revelation last evening, “To hell with the ACLU – do it ANYWAY!”

He assured all of us that he and the American Legion were working to make sure that this revered tradition does not end up in the trash bin of American Heritage like School Prayer and Commandment Memorials have.

The American People need to support the American Legion, Rees Lloyd, Restoring Our Heritage and other groups now in full combat mode to preserve yet another American Tradition and aspect of our Christian Heritage from being taken away from us and abolished.

This situation is just developing, and I will keep you posted as information comes my way.

Christian Americans, where are you? The time to stand for our Vets and our Christian Heritage IS NOW – or once they abolish this ceremony – the next target is getting rid of the crosses and Stars of David at all National Cemeteries.

If you think that will never happen, it is already being argued for by the same anti-God movement that has banned much of our revered American Christian Traditions and this Folding Ceremony.

The time to stand is now, or we lose it forever, along with the rest of our republic.


Filed under Culture War

30 responses to “Dishonoring God & Vets – Flag Folding Ceremony BANNED at ALL 22 National Cemeteries

  1. Pingback: Commemorating Ramadan, But Banning God and the Flag in America « Sword At-The-Ready

  2. Rosemary E. Lloyd

    What can we do to rescind the dreadful decision to no longer allow the flag-folding at Arlington and other military ceremonies? This, along with the playing of “Taps” and the cadence as the casket goes by, is among the most touching parts of a military funeral. I know because I experienced it in January when we buried my Uncle Warren at Arlington. Uncle Warren, my father’s older brother, earned 2 Purple Hearts, served in WWII and Korea and would have gone to Vietnam except the humidity there would have exacerbated his asthma. He retired from the Marine Corps in 1963 yet was a Marine in spirit until the day he died.
    Now these leftist liberal nut jobs want to take the flag-folding ceremony out of a military funeral performed at a military ceremony. What gives them that right and, as I asked before, what can we done to stop this? It broke my heart when I learned of this and I thank God Uncle Warren was buried before this crazy rule went into effect. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Without conservative media such as yourselves and people like Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin and columnists too numerous to mention, we might never have known about this. So keep up the good work!
    Sincerely, Rosemary E. Lloyd, Elberon, NJ

  3. invar

    Thank you for sharing that Rosemary, and thank you and your family for the service they gave that affords me the ability to speak and write like I do here.

    You asked, “What can we do?”

    We need to stand and oppose these things without tiring, and fight them with all vigor and intensity.

    That stops a further encroachment on our First Amendment Right of Free Exercise and speech.

    Then we need to evangelize. To our households, our neighbors, our communities the need to recapture our religious roots, true history and heritage, and LIVE the way of life Christ called us to live and our Founders expected of us. The lip service to faith and religion has to stop. It has to once again become the way we as a people think.

    That solves the root cause of our woes in this nation.

    We do that, we turn the culture around.

    We turn the culture around, we preserve liberty.

    We preserve liberty, we establish peace.

  4. Pingback: Media Finally Reports On the Ban of the Flag Folding Ceremony « Sword At-The-Ready

  5. pfc. caldwell

    i can not believe this! what in the f**k is this country coming to? i am a soldier in the army and i am being told that my mother can’t recieve the one symbol of what i fought and died for. anyone who is military or related so knows what that flag means to us soldiers. i served and am willing to die for that flag and everything it stands for. now if that momento of my service can not be given to my family to honor my service, then why do i continue to fight for it???

  6. invar

    Thank you for your service sir. My ability to write this blog is because of what you are willing to sacrifice for MY RIGHTS and those of our countrymen.

    Do not ever forget that – even though our government and the Stalinists on the Godless Left keep stepping on our rights.

    We got your back here at home while you slug it out with Joe Jihad, rest assured – those of us who are ex military and citizen-soldiers are more than ticked off about this and are warring on the counter-culture here at home while you protect and serve us.

    Now to clarify – what has been banned, is the American Legion’s Honor Guard Detail to recite the Folds during the Ceremony.

    The flag can still be folded – silently. The Honor Guard is forbidden to recite what the folds represent – as has been an American Legion tradition for DECADES.

    This will not go without a fight.

    It is better to obey God than men, and I’m trying to get Christians to wake up to that truth.

    God bless you and yours for what you do – and we will continue to fight this culture war at home for you. What the flag represents, and the folds, is still on the hearts and minds of many of us who still believe in them.

    We will not be surrendering to the ACLU and the Godless Rights Infringers.

  7. Vicki

    I can’t believe this. What is happening to our Country where this is going to be banned, because someone is offended. How can we stop this outrage. If it is from someone that came from another country, they need to get used to our customs. We should not have to change our way of life, that has been a tradition for years.

  8. Fred Dings II

    I am outraged.

    I am a Korean combat vet and wish the ACLU would just sit down and shut up.

    A lot of good soldiers have died so they can speak freely, but why does anyone listen to these

  9. Bill

    Read this insanity about 3 days ago and my first thought was probably identical to all of yours: If they don’t want to be offended, DON’T SHOW UP!!! If they DO show up and act evilly, dig a 2nd hole (preferrably away from hallowed ground!).

  10. invar

    Well Bill, the deal is – they WANT to be offended – because the agenda is to abolish and eliminate the Judeo-Christian religion from this land altogether.

    Few believe and understand this, but one only has to go and read and listen to what the ACLU and the Secular Left has to say and what they do about Christians and religion to comprehend what is going on.

  11. Brenda Norman

    I am a retired national cemetery employee and know first-hand what the flag means to the veterans and their families. The family of the deceased feels so honored to have the flag folding ceremony performed and to receive the flag. When they have it placed in their hands, there are almost always tears running down their faces. They handle the flag with such care and pride and thanked the group performing the honors and myself. I am positvie the families will be very upset if this ceremony is no longer performed. All those brave men who served our country and fought for our flag deserve that last performance of honor and respect for their service. I can’t believe anyone would even think of stopping it! When they are in wars and their lives are in danger, I’m sure it is God that they are praying to.

  12. Pingback: A Posthumous Slap to a Veteran’s Last Wish « Errant Thoughts from a Disquieted Mind

  13. Christopher Lowry

    Although it is regrettable that the ACLU has demanded that this ceremony be banned from all National Cemeteries, it is doubly unfortunate that the religious majority seeks to usurp the original intent of the founders by insisting that ours is a Christian Nation.
    Do not confuse faith in god with patriotism and do not malign those veterans who do not prescribe to your particular belief.
    As an Atheist Veteran, I have seen first hand how the religious right have sought to inject their own brand of theocracy into the US Government.
    I served with the Marine Corps for eight years and served with many brave men and women of many different faiths and with those such as myself who profess no belief in the supernatural whatsoever.
    I understand that many of you may disagree, but I ask you to consider the fact that our nation was founded on the principle of liberty for all Americans, not just those who profess a faith in the divine. Please honor those veterans that have sacrificed their lives to our country regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

  14. invar


    While I appreciate your Service to our nation and my own liberty – I have to say that your comment is spoken in gross ignorance of our Founders and the role the Christian church has played in the very liberties we all have been blessed with.

    History and the writings of America’s patriarchs clearly indicates that America was a nation of Christians and Christian culture.

    The Founders never intended us to be a theocracy, as they saw what popery did to Europe. HOWEVER, that does not even remotely suggest that their ideal was a secularist culture.

    The very freedom and liberty you enjoy whether you acknowlege it or not is based on scripture, along with our laws and moral codes that make ours a civilized nation in contrast to the beastly empires of men that have ruled the planet for millenia.

    Because we WERE a Christian nation, other faiths and those like yourself of no faith – are afforded the right to worship – or not to worship here.

    I think it is instructive that those who preach ‘tolerance’ are those who are the MOST INTOLERANT. Christians are not demanding by law that everyone worship as they do, but yet – the Secular Left will ensconce in law the banning of biblical worship in places they so choose, whether they be schools, public squares or government buildings.

    We honor those vets who served for liberty.

    We do not honor those, who even though they may have served, seek to abolish our rights to free exercise of our faith and call that free exercise an imposition of a theocracy.

    Such is a boldfaced lie and a deliberate spin in order to construct an intolerant society that mandates no one exercise rights that some may find offensive, unless they are exercises that are approved by an agenda that celebrates what is anethema to our liberties and culture.

  15. Patrick Hiatt

    This is absolutely ridiculous ! I am an 80 year 0ld veteran and I find to to be absolutely appalling. Just who is this ACLU that they cannot be stopped and or confronted dead in their tracks ? Who in the hell is running this country anyway. If an organization such as the ACLU can be so powerful as to negate God and our country then it is time to elect an entire new Congress and Senate !

  16. Christopher Lowry


    To claim that our founders intended this nation to be a Christian nation is the real misrepresentation. While I will not deny that Christians have played a large part in the history of the United States, the fact is that five of our first presidents were not Christians but were Deists. In spite of what reclamationist revisionists may have told you, the writings of our founders including Jefferson, Madison, Paine, and Adams will show that they did not consider themselves to be Christians. Jefferson, while he did admire the charachter of Christ did not consider him to be divine. Adams was a Unitarian, and even George Washington himself in his thousands of letters declines to mention the name of Jesus Christ even once. Our Constitution is a wholly secular document which does not contain the words God, Jesus, Christ, or Christian even once in its text. Surely, to claim that our nation was founded on Christian principles is ludicrous despite the politicking of Christians who have tried to inject their faith into the workings of the government since the founding. I sincerely urge you to read the actual writings of our founding fathers with regards to Church and State issues as well as on their own religious views. I take issue with statement that you made regarding the scriptures as the basis of our liberty. The scriptures are wholly antithetical to true liberty, and instead require complete obedience to an unseen unknowable master. Before you challenge my grasp of history, I ask you to take the time to research it yourself. Furthermore, as I stated in my previous post, I do not believe that the particular ceremony in question should have been banned, but it would be an insult to me personally if any ceremony that misrepresents our nation as a Christian nation and by association represents myself as a follower of that religion were to be read at my own funeral. So in the spirit of the first amendment, celebrate your life and your faith in the manner that you see fit, but do not seek to destroy my rights by pushing your faith into the political arena.

    Christopher S. Lowry
    Sergeant, USMC

  17. Christopher Lowry


    In addition to my above comments I am including a link to reference a few of my claims. I will certainly be willing to provide more evidence to support my stance on this issue if you so desire.


  18. invar


    While I respect your right to think and believe what you will, I think it is fruitless in your case to convince you beyond what you have made your mind up about our Christian heritage.

    The facts you provide about our Founders’ Deism and lack of Christian belief is pure secular revisionism.

    George Washington himself in his thousands of letters declines to mention the name of Jesus Christ even once

    George Washington mentions God 146 times in dozens of letters and written speeches, along with the use of “heaven” in the Christian context 133 times in his written words.

    Here is one such entry:

    “While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion.

    To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal instances of Providential goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success demand from us a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to the Supreme Author of all good.”
    — George Washington
    Orders issued on May 2, 1778 to troops at Valley Forge

    It might interest you to note that General Washington declared that those soldiers serving under him be in church when not on the front line.

    Some Deist huh?

    Cherry picking specific non-denominational or anti-popery statements and declaring the Founders weren’t Christian or intended a Christian culture to be the mainstay of this republic is simply bogus when taken in context of MANY, MANY writings, correspondence and speeches they gave.

    A little history and the actual writings of those whom secularists insist were not Christian.

    I highly doubt even their own writings will convince you otherwise. The historical fact remains that this nation since the mid-1600’s was a largely Christian culture and society that our foundations were built upon.

    It is also a sad testimony that you have no true understanding of where our liberties and rights actually come from. You might wish to do a study about what the Founder’s meant by the use of “Nature’s God” in our founding documents. I can assure you it was not Gaia or any kind of Darwinian application.

    If we take your position to it’s logical application – our rights and liberties are left to the establishments of men, and as such – they can be abolished and removed by the decress of men. For someone who says they know history, I would think you understand the tyrannical nature of men and what they do when they achieve positions of power.

    It is why our liberties were declared to come from God. Without a Creator bestowing those “natural rights” – our liberties are simple permissions of men. Our liberties were declared to be BEYOND the realm or touch of men – and that notion comes from what Jesus Christ said himself about freedom.

    What our Founders wrote and meant about our liberties is congruent with the scriptures. Contary to your belief, the scriptures are hardly antithetical to liberty, they are quite the opposite. What you are doing is confusing religious insitutions of men with scripture. Men in positions of power are a threat no matter they be governmental or religious institutions. Jesus Himself railed against such men in power inside institutions constructed by men when he slammed the Pharisees in His ministry.

    If license to behave however one wishes to behave is how liberty is to be defined, such understanding of the freedom our Founders intended is shallow at best.

    That kind of liberty becomes nothing more than a license of selfishness and a slavery to sin, which is what our society is devolving into. As acknowledgment of God is removed from this society as secularists demand – I marvel that few are able to notice the concurrent rise of abuse, rape, murders, robbery, addictions and depravity that occur in religion’s wake. But there it is.

    I also have to take serious issue with the declarations of intolerance towards Christians that the secular ideology continues to demonstrate. The ridiculous assertions that any of us exercising our Right of Free Exercise are infringing on personal liberties because it is seen as “pushing” our religion down your throats is, with all due respect sir, crap.

    The truth is that secularists have made it clear they do not want to see, or know that religion or faith exist in this society. Many blame the Christian and Jewish religion for all the woe and misery on the planet. In short – it’s because they hate God and anyone who professes a belief in God which is why the Secular Movement seeks to abolish, restrict and ban any semblence of the Judeo-Christian faith from display or practice.

    No Christian is forcing you to our faith by their practice and acknowlegement of religion in public or private. Yet you will use the courts and the legislatures to force us to relinquish the rights you gave an oath to defend.

    The American Legion Honor Guard is not going to conduct a recital of the Flag Ceremony if you or your family do not wish it.

    What is interesting is that it only takes one secularist to bitch and moan offense that the American Legion Honor Guard actually conducts such a reading to a family that desires the honor – to have it banned – along with every other vestige of faith and acknowlegement in our society.

    But mark these words – if the secular movment achieves what it desires in banning and even criminalizing Christianity (as some wont to do), this nation you serve – will go down in flames and cease to be a nation at all.

    I just paraphrased Adams who was quoting scriptural principle if you want to check it out.

  19. Christopher Lowry


    I would very much like to continue this conversation with you. Please let me know if you are interested. To adequately respond to your above statements will require some time on my part and in order to keep on track I feel that the best forum for this discussion would be through personal correspondence.

    If you decide to take me up on my offer, we will decide upon an appropriate method by which to correspond. I am not prepared to provide my email address on this forum as I desire to avoid the malicious attacks (i.e., hate mail) purputrated by nameless cowards swamping my inbox.

    It seems strange to me that you believe there is a conspiracy against Christianity that seeks to ban or criminalize Christianity. I should like to see your evidence for this conspiracy. My only aim is to ensure that liberty is maintained for all Americans (Theist and Atheist)

    I have not claimed that the founders were Atheists or Secularists; only that the government was founded as a secular institution regardless of the personal beliefs of those in power.

    I take issue with your lumping me in with ACLU and their obviously misguided attempt to interfere with a private religious matter. I have stated twice before that I disagree with this decision.

    Furthermore, I commend you for standing up for your faith in the face of this adversity. I am certain that in the spirit of religious liberty, you can understand my position in standing up against those in the religious community that seek to impose their faith on the rest of Americans. By imposition, I mean the efforts of those Theists who believe that their faith should dictate the law of the land. Outlawing homosexual marriage and stem cell research, and introducing creationism (Intelligent design, etc) into the science classroom are just a few of these efforts that I stand in opposition to. I will give you (the individual) the benefit of the doubt and I will not count you among those who seek these goals.

    The secularists (though we do have our radical exceptions) do not seek to remove all reference to religion from the public square. We seek only to remove it from government affairs.

    In both of our efforts, we should apply the Lemon Test in all legal matters pertaining to religios entanglements with the government. The purpose of the Lemon test is to determine when a law has the effect of establishing religion. As articulated by Chief Justice Burger, the test has three parts:

    First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion; finally, the statute must not foster “an excessive government entanglement with religion.”

    As you can plainly see, the Lemon Test states that laws must not be made that neither advance nor inhibit religion. I think that it is clear that the ACLU’s unconstitutional ban will not pass muster once the case makes it to court.

    It is regrettable that this touchy feely politically correct BS has caused such a fervor that the VA would turn tail and run from such a blatant violation of the free exercise clause.

  20. invar

    I would very much like to continue this conversation with you. Please let me know if you are interested. To adequately respond to your above statements will require some time on my part and in order to keep on track I feel that the best forum for this discussion would be through personal correspondence

    The conversation is good, instructive and admittedly better than the usual arguments I get into with militant secularists, and it might be helpful and edifying to understand our positions better.

    The only reservation I have is also giving out personal e-mail info – because like you – I have a vast array of disgruntled folks who would love nothing better than a crack at my personal life.

    Since this blog is not widely read (it is relatively new), and outside of the initial numbers of folks who viewed this entry after it was posted for a few days, I would think commentaries back and forth here at this entry would largely end up being between just the two of us conversing. However, if this is not an option for you – I do have the addy listed in your wordpress account to send a note. I just need to create an e-mail addy that is not part of my personal or business domain.

    It seems strange to me that you believe there is a conspiracy against Christianity that seeks to ban or criminalize Christianity. I should like to see your evidence for this conspiracy.

    How much time do you have? You can go to Richard Dawkins’ site and related forums for a quick trip into the zeitgeist for a purge of “fundamentalists’ from society. Many of the political forums I haunt have scores of secularist Left folks who even have espoused the criminalization of Christianity as a mental disorder, not to mention calling it child abuse and suggesting the state remomve children from loving parents if they teach them the scriptures.

    Since you are a history buff, I suppose I do not have to point out how the Great Purges in societies begin.

    Even Jews dismissed the notion that the National Socialists were on course for a purge of Jews from Europe in the 1930’s. They too considered such talk to be ‘conspiratorial’.

    There is one constant effort in the history of the last two and a half millenia my friend, and that is the efforts to persecute and eradicate Jews and Christians.

    My only aim is to ensure that liberty is maintained for all Americans (Theist and Atheist)

    That was the desire of the Founders. Because they were largely Christian, and this was a largely Christian culture – the rights of other faiths and those of non belief were afforded their right to worship, or not to worship.

    However, that did not preclude the expectations individual communities and states had upon it’s citizens. At one time, those who did not attend church were roundly rebuffed as outcasts by society – as is society’s right per their own individual application of community standards.

    I have not claimed that the founders were Atheists or Secularists; only that the government was founded as a secular institution regardless of the personal beliefs of those in power.

    Then we are in agreement.

    However, the government was not prevented from encouraging or promoting religion, faith and tradition in our nation until the late 1950’s.

    The government is prohibited from making any legislation regarding an establishment of a state church, or prohibiting the free exercise of faith. There is nothing written in the Constitution about separating the two – and it is absurd to suggest such a thing when our own laws are built on the foundation of morality in the bible.

    Adams made this crystal clear when he said “Our Constitution was made ONLY for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other”.

    Have you pondered why he made that statement?

    A religious people were the only hope the Founders had that the republic they established to secure their God-ordained liberties could be kept.

    A moral people, bound to a Higher Law than those of mere men, would personally conduct themselves in a fashion that would require little government control.

    It is why Franklin said “Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters”.

    Virtue is found in the tenets of religion whether you wish to acknowlege that or not. Morality does not come from the mind of men, whose history is repleat with nothing more than the strong ruling the weak. Religion teaches the exact opposite, and our laws and codes of honor are rooted in Judeo/Christian religious tradition.

    I am certain that in the spirit of religious liberty, you can understand my position in standing up against those in the religious community that seek to impose their faith on the rest of Americans.

    How do you come to that conclusion? Are they putting a gun to your head demanding you go to church? Are they passing laws that you must attend a bible study?

    How do you arrive that by Christians and Jews exercizing their faith in public is “imposing” their religion on you?

    I’m not real keen on Muslims at the moment – but I would take up arms in a heartbeat to defend their right to kneel down and bow in prayer on the grounds of a courthouse when the time required them to do so as their faith directs and it does not infringe or impede mine.

    I believe in mutual respect in regards to religion and belief – or non-belief. However, this American culture was a Christian culture. I encourage fellow Christians to ensure that culture remains and is defended.

    By analogy – it’s the same with the Illegal Mexican Insurgency in this country. While I can respect a Mexican Heritage, ours is an American culture, and we should be working to preserve and protect that culture – by requiring immigrants respect our laws, traditions and assimilate into our culture and society, not enclave and create a Mexican province right in the heart of the United States.

    But alas, multiculturalism has poisoned what was once common sense, and few see the virtue or need to preserve a distinct American culture.

    This is also true of our religious culture – from where our foundations and liberties came.

    By imposition, I mean the efforts of those Theists who believe that their faith should dictate the law of the land.

    Our laws of this land are BUILT on the Commandments of God. Murder, Rape, Burglary, Perjury, and a host of sundry laws found in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are the basis of our own legal code.

    Should we toss those laws out because they come from religion and you do not like being dictated to by religion?

    Outlawing homosexual marriage and stem cell research, and introducing creationism (Intelligent design, etc) into the science classroom are just a few of these efforts that I stand in opposition to.

    Those are huge subjects – but they all boil down to morality and our culture as previously discussed.

    Homosexual marriage is not even something the Roman Empire messed with redefining. I think the arugment of defining deviancy down is a discussion to have in context of that subject.

    It’s like abortion. I think laws are silly to combat abortion. Churches need to teach their members the blessings that come with waiting for marriage and rail against promiscuity – discussing the consequences that come from thinking with hormones instead of the brain and a moral code. Abortion numbers will whither on their own with no government law needed. The problem is that our culture and public school system ENCOURAGE premarital and promiscuous sex – the churches bow to political correctness and therefore the root cause of both abortion and even homosexuality – is never addressed.

    Just more band aid on a host of societal cancers, never dealing with the root cause of the disease.

    Intelligent Design is an argument that stems from the fact that evolutionists will suffer no rivals in applying secular doctrine to all matters of life on this planet, and will not allow a fair and joint discussion or presentation of understanding between the two.

    Sadly, religion has helped create that gulf – I personally find that science and the bible help define and explain one another. But I am unusual in biblical understanding compared to most.

    The secularists (though we do have our radical exceptions) do not seek to remove all reference to religion from the public square. We seek only to remove it from government affairs.

    Which extends to ANYTHING public – which is seen as a government venue. Public parks, public schools. Public roads. ALL have bans on everything from boy scouts to religious picnics – not to mention the banning of Commandments from court houses which is as insane as banning the mention of God in a church service .

    The purpose of the Lemon test is to determine when a law has the effect of establishing religion.

    Let’s be clear here. America should NOT have a Talmud of judicial “interpretations” to supposedly redefine plain English in the Constitution to fit a warped cultural agenda.

    The plain words of the Constitution are clear: Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, OR prohibiting the free exercize thereof.

    Now notice that the Amendment does NOT SAY “respecting an “ENDORSEMENT” of religion. It says “Establishment of religion” – in the context of a state church as in England. The Founders were all fiercely anti-poperists.

    The problem sir, is that secularists and the ACLU have convinced the courts that having Boy Scouts at a State Park for Jamboree is an “endorsement of religion”, as is having bibles in classrooms or saying prayers around a flagpole before class.

    It is regrettable that this touchy feely politically correct BS has caused such a fervor that the VA would turn tail and run from such a blatant violation of the free exercise clause.

    I’m glad you see it that way, and we have won a victory in that case towards preserving the right of free exercise – and along with it – the right to liberty as the Founders intended.

    But that is one small victory in a culture war that is long from being won.

  21. First of all…..Thank you to all who have served this great nation.

    I am a Staff Sergeant in the United States Army. I have served this country in its time of need for six years with two deployments to Iraq.

    How can we accept this “mass punishment” on behave of some. If it is someones right to fight against the folding of the flag, is it not our right to fight for it? If nothing else it should be the veterens decision to have the flag folded or not. You cannot take away that honor that we as vets have earned.


  22. Christopher S. Lowry


    After spending some time crafting my response, it seems as though Sword at the Ready is blocking my response. Perhaps it is too long, or maybe the URL’s in the post are tripping the spam filter. I don’t know. Either way, just let me know how to contact you and I will email my response to you.

    Christopher S. Lowry

  23. invar

    I can assure you that I am not blocking your reply.

    Perhaps the length or links are interfereing with the post – as I do have Askimet filtering spam.

    I will figure out a way to get a message out to you.

  24. invar


    Your replies were indeed caught up in the Askimet spam filter – I’m assuming due the number of links you provided in your post.

    From what I was able to read, you are a far more devout Atheist than I ever was, and much more insistant in the efforts of “debunking” God and religion. Yours appears an evangelism of Atheism as assuredly as mine is an apologetic of Christianity and our heritage.

    The two will probably not come to agreement.

    It’s obvious I’m not going to convey anything that is going to lead to a better understanding on your part about either the role religion and Christianity played in our Founding, or of religion itself. Your doctrines are as staunch as mine are.

    However, having once been an Atheist – I know from where you come from. I do not expect to convince you of what I understand. That was a process of years of painful study. It is something you would have to discover on your own, as I did.

    All I can tell you is that when you strip away the traditions of men, scripture is hardly from the mind of men and it helps answer the questions of WHY – something Atheism never provided me.

    Of course my biblical understanding and faith is much different in many ways than the beliefs of most Christians. I do not subscribe to many of the doctrines you cite as evidence of inconsistence and absurdity. Those are precepts of men grafted into plain scripture.

    It took me years to discover what I now understand and have proven, and one conversation is not going to convey what I know to you.

    But I can tell what spirit you are of when you wrote your lengthy reply – and at this point, I’m hesitant in continuing this conversation – taking into admonition a scripture that warns us not to toss pearls of wisdom before ‘swine’ – meaning those who will simply trample it underfoot.

    Let’s suffice it to say that I understand why you rail against many of the aspects of religion, from the traditions of hellfire to original sin – and they are not without merit. But again, what arguments of merit you have, are against traditions of men in religion. Something that might surprise you to know our Founders also did not take a liking to.

    I was tempted to reply to many of your points – but as I said – I’m not sure there would be any benefit of doing so. All I can say is that the real truth of God and His plan for all mankind is far beyond what you assume from the inconsistencies of religious traditions. I agree with some of what you state, but my conclusions are far different than yours.

    What I am unsure of – is whether this conversation will yield any fruit – or if it will simply end up becoming one offense after another.

    I am not be stupid enough to argue with a Richard Dawkins type – there is no point to doing so, anymore than it would be trying to convince Osama Bin laden of the merits of Catholicism.

    My faith is not blind, nor does it require blind acceptance. However, if your intent is to simply debunk God and scripture, and by extention dismiss it’s role in our Founding – I doubt furthering this discussion will lead to anything but resentment.

  25. Christopher Lowry


    Thank you for your reply, and for taking the time to read my post. I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree.
    As to the question WHY… well I for one am content to answer “I don’t know”.
    What is clear is that people throughout the ages have attempted to explain nearly every unknown with magic and miracles.
    Our understanding of the universe, and our origins may never be complete, however, I believe that it would be intellectually dishonest to substitute “God did it!” for a gap in knowledge.
    Among other issues, we disagree on the faith and intent of the founders. I intend to delve deeper into their writings to find the truth apart from the propaganda of both sides of this debate.
    I share your sentiments regarding “Pearls before swine”. The analogy is certainly appropriate in this context. Since religion and politics are such polarizing issues, I am forced to agree that this particular argument may be futile.
    It is heartening to know that two people with such radically different opinions may engage in civilized debate without resorting to juvenile tactics.

    “The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason. I have never used any other and I trust I never shall.”
    – Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

    Christopher S. Lowry
    Sergeant, USMC

  26. I have a son serving his third tour in Iraq, Army. They keep re-activating him, since we do not have a draft, and they need his skills. It is his 10th year in service. I am so proud of all whom serve our great country! My Father is still alive from WWII, and 2 brothers from Viet Nam, all Army My younger brother, Navy; on the USS Nimitz. My husband was Navy, nuclear submarine in 69. I would love to order the emblem decal; Support Our Troops W/Eagle,sword and all the various sources of defense on it for the US branches. God Bless You in All You Do!
    Valerie Brown

  27. Honor Guard

    This is all a fun discussion but it started with a false statement.

    We still (and always will) fold and present a flag at every US Military Veterans funeral. This is provided the family has requested our service. Some people who have served have family members that do not wish to receive a flag, so they don’t. Here is the speech that we say when presenting the flag.

    “On behalf of the President of the United States, a grateful nation and a proud Navy I present to you this flag, our Nations Ensign, in honor of your (loved ones) faithful service to the Untied States Armed Forces.”

    Just a note from a Navy Honor Guard Participant.

  28. faith ohanesian


  29. Anonymous

    What is this country coming to? I am not sure but I am sure it is not coming to what these types of liars portray. In his fourth pargraph he even thinks they are trying to take away his right to excercize. Wow.
    I have seen these inflammatory posts for years now and none have been true. The problem is that young people today take what is said on the net as the Gospel truth. What a shame you guys don’t read and think more.

  30. Kevin p

    i say keep the ceremony and sod the ACLU and i’m an atheist

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