Fed Court Bans Christian Prison Ministries

ban-christianity.jpg

The fact that they will ban a Christian program to rehab hardened criminals, that results in a tiny recidivism rate because it violates the mythical “Church-state separation” clause in the Constitution, means we don’t deserve to survive as a Republic.

At the same time, the ACLU and these nitwits on the court PROMOTE and PROTECT militant Islam being practiced in our prisons and We the Taxpayers PAY FOR Korans and Prayer Rugs for Muslims in our prisons.

Remember the goals of Atheistic Communists that were entered into the Congressional record by Albert Herlong in 1963?, #27 stated: “Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.”

I’d say they can check off that action point as “mission accomplished”.

Of course today – the perversion is that Atheists wrap themselves up in the mantles of Freedom and Constitutional Liberty while walking around like Secular Pharisees banning and running religion out of the nation – demonstrating the kind of tyranny they say the religious are engaging in.

Despite the fact that this ruling does specifically ban private donations to operate prison ministries – look for the next shoe to drop: the precedent this case sets to demand that Christianity be banned from prison ministries altogether.

I imagine the briefs to be filed are already being typed.

Court: Prison program unconstitutional

AP

DES MOINES, Iowa – A federal appeals court ruled Monday that the state of Iowa cannot fund an evangelical Christian prison ministry program because doing so advances or endorses religion, violating the Constitutional separation of church and state.

The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld U.S. District Judge Robert Pratt’s June 2006 ruling that a Prison Fellowship Ministries Inc. program at the Newton Correctional Facility was unconstitutional if paid for with taxpayer dollars and should be shut down.

Barry Lynn, executive director of the Washington-based advocacy group Americans United For Separation of Church and State, which brought the lawsuit, said the ruling would have major implications for the Bush administration’s policies of allowing faith-based groups to offer services to government institutions.

“This is an enormously significant case on the whole question of how government can, or in this case, cannot aid religious ministries,” Lynn said.

“I think this has implications far broader than a prison in a single state because the basic framework of this decision, the way they reached the conclusion is that government can’t pay for these religious social services nor can they turn over functions of government essentially to religious operations,” he said.

Prison Fellowship Ministries, which contracts with InnerChange Freedom Initiatives Inc. and other organizations to conduct faith-based programs, must repay about $160,000 to the state for money received between June 2006 and June 2007, said Mark Early, the group’s president.

He said the ruling would clarify how faith-based programs could work with government agencies.

“We’re pleased because in this opinion there are some clarifying guidelines to help us and other faith-based organizations working in government settings, such as prisons, to be able to fashion a program and make sure they do comply with current understanding of constitutional law in this area.”

Prison Fellowship operates nine programs in six states: Iowa, Arkansas, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri and Texas. All are now privately funded through donations from individuals and foundations, he said.

The 24-hour a day, seven-day a week program at Newton immerses inmates in evangelical Christianity. Inmates who complete the 18-month program also get help after they’re released from prison.

Fred Scaletta, a spokesman for the Iowa Department of Corrections, said corrections officials were reviewing the ruling with the attorney general’s office to determine how the state would proceed with the operation of the program.

Bob Brammer, a spokesman for the Iowa attorney general’s office, said attorneys were reviewing the ruling and considering whether to appeal.

An appeal could include asking the three-member 8th Circuit panel for clarification on issues or could seek consideration by the full 8th Circuit Court. The ruling also could be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

44 Comments

Filed under Chrisitan Viewpoint, Culture War, News

44 responses to “Fed Court Bans Christian Prison Ministries

  1. Anonymous

    God will always be the ruler of all people so surrender now to your ruler and obey your Father, Son and the holy Spirit.

  2. Anonymous

    God will aways bless America, so stop your fight to get rid of him. Amnd how dare you to have a picture with the cross, crossed out. Shame on you.

  3. Anonymous

    I believe people should be free to worship as they want or don’t want to

  4. Anonymous

    You have failed, anti-Christians.

  5. Believer

    You will perish for this.

  6. Believer

    Why? Jesus is the ruler of all. Ban Christianity? Great Joke Buddy. I would say nice try… but its not. get an education

    Jesus Loves you

    No name.

  7. Anonymous

    Dont try to get rid of christianity in America cause its the most practiced religion and people trust God, Jesus and the Holy Spirt

  8. anonymous

    all these comments r so true jesus is lord and one day every knee will bow!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. Common Denominator

    “For he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that does evil.”
    Romans 13:4

    “to avenge the slaughter of Muslims by America.”
    -Osama bin Laden

    Abrahamic religions! funny that.

  10. no name

    you are wrong its a religon and its none of your business to say that

  11. beeky319

    Hey watch it buster. You’re messin’ with the biggest religion on earth, obey THE God, Father + Son + Holy Spirit +

    You’re askin for it, and you’re gonna get it (very bad)

    Now go and clear all that crap out of your mind! Drain the crap, put in the truth! ++++++

  12. I just want to say how disgusting it is for anyone to want to BAN any religion.
    Im a STRONG christian and a loyal daughter of christ and i am more than offended to hear and read some of the things i have heard and read.
    I recently saw that “joke” definition of Christianity and what heathens have to say about it and its just sad.
    I am disgusted but knowing the truth as i do, i can only love as Jesus loved and keep faithful to the future when all will bow down and kneel for they will KNOW the truth.
    :]
    -happy to be a jesusfreak

  13. A Fellow Christian

    I am a Christian and I personally don’t have a problem with other religions, as long as I am not forced to participate in them. Banning Christian prayer is also a violation of the Constitution. Amendment 1: Freedom of RELIGION, speech, press, and assembly; the right to petition the government. The government is not doing their job here. They need to learn to take their own advice and follow the laws and amendments our forefathers of this country set in place.

  14. A Fellow Christian

    Oh and another thing. We Christians shouldn’t worry. We know the truth. Jesus loves us and everyone whether they know / believe it or not. JESUS LOVES YOU. Everyone will know the truth sooner or later. Just sit back and watch as GOD takes this situation into his own hands.

  15. Grown up.

    I stopped believing in Christ and Santa a long time ago. Just the kids (Americans) still believe in such nonsense.

  16. invar

    That’s why people like you are insulting, vapid, void and empty of anything but your own miserable selves, and most likely, losing your country to Muslims.

  17. Tasida

    I am more patriotic than you.

    I put my country before any God. Our nation is clearly a secular nation. Most of the founding fathers were deists. Few were Christians. Many explicitly criticized Christianity for squashing the rights, freedoms, and minds of people. Above all, they were all secularists, believing that government should be neutral to religion. Neutral; not hostile nor accomodating; neutral.

    Thomas Jefferson himself coined the term “separation of church and state.” Either one is powerful enough by itself. Entangling them creates a monster dentrimental to all, church, state, and citizen.

    It is dishonest to say that this ruling “bans christianity” from prisons. It hardly can be; 75% of both the general and prison population is christian (while atheist make up 10% of the general and only 0.2% of the prison). What it bans is the government funding of prostelytizing a captive audience. Nobody is going to take their damn bibles away.

    If Christianity is to win any one over, it must do so on its own merits, without help from government. Allowing religion to seep into government corrupts both and destroys the credibility of both. If you love your country and your religion you need to understand this.

    Apparently you don’t. You don’t love either. You just want to be a crusader. Don’t think too hard; you might hurt yourself. Or make God angry.

  18. invar

    I am more patriotic than you.

    Given your ranting below – I don’t think so.

    You’re ignorant of both history, the facts and the truth.

    But be of good cheer – your secular brethren, the Communists from the World Workers Party tell me they are more patriotic too – more patriotic than those of us who put God first before anything else.

    So you are not alone in thinking you are more patriotic than someone who puts God first in his life.

    I put my country before any God.

    There’s your problem right there.

    You might want to read up on what the Founders actually had to say about what came first: God or country. You will find yourself in opposition to Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Henry et al.

    What was it you were saying about patriotism again???

    Our nation is clearly a secular nation.

    No, wrong – in the context you are attempting to present.

    America is turning more secular, but it was never ‘clearly secular’ as it was established and then founded. Read the Founders again – or DeToqueville, and perhaps learn how absolutely ignorant you are of our true heritage and history.

    Most of the founding fathers were deists. Few were Christians.

    That’s a lie, and completely bogus.

    Perhaps you might read the essays on this blog up top about Washington from William J. Federer and learn something before making an ignoramus of yourself with such stupid statements.

    The Founders were NOT Deists – contrary to the Secularists and Atheists that insist they were.

    Many explicitly criticized Christianity for squashing the rights, freedoms, and minds of people.

    No – WRONG.

    They criticized the CHURCH – what Samuel Adams referred as ‘popery’ – referencing the political tyranny both the Catholic and the Anglican church held over the nations and peoples for centuries in Europe.

    They did not criticize Christianity, or religion or the Bible. In fact they often QUOTED the scriptures in their speeches and writings.

    It was the institutionalized churches – that were an arm of the State that they had a problem with.

    Above all, they were all secularists, believing that government should be neutral to religion. Neutral; not hostile nor accomodating; neutral.

    First off – they were NOT Secularists. That’s a boldfaced lie.

    Second, the Federal Government itself was established as a secular institution – so that no denomination or church could impose the ‘popery’ that Europe experienced.

    But individuals and the state were ENCOURAGED to be SPECIFICALLY religious and Christian. In fact, at our Founding – some states required Christian professions of faith in order to hold office in that state – as the Constitution clearly gave them right to do.

    Thomas Jefferson himself coined the term “separation of church and state.”

    And WHY did Jefferson make that statement??? Was it a referendum on the First Amendment???

    No.

    It was a personal letter in response to a request that Jefferson use the government to de-establish the Congregationalist church by the Danbury baptists in 1801.

    Government has no role or ability to have ANY say in matters of religious exercise and expression and practice. It means government has no ability to ban churches or establish churches. It has no authority to ban or restrict religious monuments, exercise or lack thereof.

    But thanks to Secularists like you – that SUPPORT the abolishment of our Constitutional Right to free exercise – that separation has been breached.

    Since you people are the ones abolishing a God-given Constitutionally-protected right – your claim to be “patriotic” is truly laughable.

    If anything – you are the exact opposite – a despot, if you will.

    Nobody is going to take their damn bibles away.

    Tell that to any public school kid who loves the Bible and tried to bring one to school.

    Or perhaps the boy scouts that meet at public libraries.

    If Christianity is to win any one over, it must do so on its own merits, without help from government.

    Christians are NOT asking for help from government – they are petitioning for a redress of grievance that the government LEAVE THEM ALONE and stop infringing on their right of free exercise – and to RESTORE their rights tha thave been infringed and abolished by your Satanic “separation of church and state” heresy.

    Allowing religion to seep into government corrupts both and destroys the credibility of both.

    Pure unadulterated CRAP.

    The corruption, criminality, perversion and immorality of government and society we see today IS A DIRECT RESULT of religion seeping OUT of the culture at the insistence of tyrants like yourself.

    We have become a decadent nation as a RESULT of the absence of religion in the public and private square – the evidence of this CONDEMNS you and your insipid arguments.

    Apparently you don’t. You don’t love either. You just want to be a crusader.

    Spoken like a true Pharisee.

    That’s okay – Satan stands before the Throne night and day accusing the Brethren before God.

    Why should you be any different?

  19. Tasida

    (Dripping with sarcasm) Oh gosh. I guess you are right. Since I don’t think like you, that must make me evil. (End sarcasm) Seriously, secularism has nothing to do with communism (Ted Turner, Thomas Edison, and Bill Gates are freethinkers!) and everything to do with liberty.

    “The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” – Thomas Jefferson (Works, 1829 ed., Vol. IV, p. 365)

    “Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. . . . Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find inducements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you.”
    — Thomas Jefferson’s letter to nephew Peter Carr, written from Paris, Aug. 10, 1787

    Lemon test (Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971)
    1. A law must have a secular purpose.

    2. It must have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits religion.

    3. It must avoid excessive entanglement of church and state.

    Treaty of Tripoli (1796)
    “As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

    John Adams:
    “I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

    “. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”

    Benjamin Franklin:
    “My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.

    “. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist.”

    James Madison:
    “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

    “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”

    Thomas Paine (Author of The Age of Reason- an 18th century book similar to The End of Faith)

    “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. ”

    “Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. ”

    Article VI, Section 3, “. . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

    It makes my heart heavy to think that any one as wise and bold as our founding fathers could not be elected to public office today. It is clear we have a de-facto religious test; no person can be elected to public office without prostrating themselves to Jesus Christ for all the voting public to see.

    If you are a patriot, do all that you can to remedy this; not with guns nor force nor money, but with ideas spoken boldly and freely to your fellow voter.

  20. Tasida

    And calling me a ranter is not an argument.

  21. invar

    You know, the only unpatriotic wannabe despot and tyrant, is you and Secularists like you since you have made it YOUR CRUSADE to hunt down and come onto religious blogs and forums to spew your outright falsehoods and out -of-context bingo-quote rants to try and prove that Our Founders were Deist or atheist and secular.

    People like me are not galavanting onto Secularist blogs and forums to get in your face about your nonsense. It’s illustrative that you people make it a crusade to do so on religious fora, so you are projecting that which you accuse.

    Like all good liberal secularists that cherry-pick their quotes to fashion an entire doctrine of secularism as the standard we must keep in order to infringe and abolish the rights of the religious in America, you do the same – yet on this very blog are essays and letters/quotes and examinations of our Founders that more than prove your allegations bogus.

    The Treaty of Tripoli has already been discussed and debunked in the terms you people wish to ascribe it.

    Taking into account Jefferson’s time in Enlightenment France, his comments written at the time became more in-line with Paine’s – who also spent time being influenced by the Secular Enlightenment movement in France.

    His letters with his old friend John Adams more than outline Jefferson’s respect for the Christian religion.

    James Madison says exactly what I said to you earlier about his disdain for the ‘popery’ of the established churches.

    Paine’s views were excoriated by the majority of the Founders he once shared the passion for Liberty with – and they shunned and publicly scolded him.

    The fruits of your secularist religion is manifest in our country today – along with the condemnation of the Christian church for letting themselves get lukewarm and bowing to your war on faith.

    The sin, hedonism, criminality, corruption and utter lack of respect of our founding principles for Socialism – is due in part the fruits that the secular society you preach has wrought upon this culture.

    Only morality and religious principles rooted in the bible can preserve a republic.

    Since people like you are on a crusade to eliminate them – the fruits they have engendered are rotten despotism, hedonism and criminality.

  22. Tasida

    Okay, before I hand your ass to you on a platter, I want to make one thing clear.

    Secularists do not want to abolish christianity, nor any religion, from this country. There is plenty of room in a secular nation for Christianity. That is the beauty of a secular nation- religious ideas are allowed to peacefully coexist and flourish precisely because the Government stays neutral about religion.

    I attend a bible study at my local public community college. It is not one of those “critical” bible studies, either. It is an honest to God study of the bible as the literal Word of God. And even though I’m an atheist, I behave myself. Mostly I just listen; I’m trying to get an honest perspective about what Christians really think. Listening to the other side is fun. You should try it some time.

    I’m also starting a freethinkers’ group at the college. Our kickoff meeting is in about a week. Could we do this if this were a Christian nation? I’m afraid not. Other colleges have jewish and muslim and hindu groups. Could they peacefully exist in a Christian nation? Would you let them?

    And that is the difference between you and me. I value the free exchange of ideas so much that I would gladly lay down my life to protect your right to peacefully assemble in a church, write a blog, protest in the street, and write to your government. But part of the bargain is, I want the same rights to freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and freedom to practice my religion or not practice any religion as you. You don’t seem to be willing to extend that right to me.

    The right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose. I do not want my child indoctrinated at a public school that he is compelled by law to attend. I don’t care if Johnny at the next desk is reading the gospel during free-reading time. I don’t mind if a religious group uses the space in a public school as long as it pays the same rent any other group would have to pay. I just don’t want his teachers telling him he is going to hell and doesn’t belong to the community if he doesn’t believe in their religious stories.

    I do not want my tax money spent converting crimminals to dogma I find morally offensive. If these ministries want to volunteer their own time and money visiting prisoners, more power to them. That is one of the most commendable teachings in the bible.

    I do not want to be an atheist in a court of law in which the foundation of justice and morality is assumed to rest in belief and subservience to a God I willfully admit to find abhorrant. Imagine someone like you administering the law to me under that assumption. Does it really matter what the evidence shows or what the charges are? You believe I am evil. I can kiss my civil liberties good-bye.

    This is my olive branch; we can go back and forth arguing over what the founding fathers say or what the constitution means, or I can try to get you to see things from my point of view. I understand that you fear God and you want to give Him our nation. However, a secular nation is not against God, and this nation is not solely yours to give to him. You are free to follow His law in the way you see fit. You are free to associate yourself with others who think like you. And all of these acts are all the more holy because you do them upon your own free will, and not under the threat of punishment from the state. Besides, if He exists, this nation belongs to him already.

    Romans 13:1 “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”

    1 Peter 2:13-14 “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted amoung men: whether to the king, as the supree authority, or to governors who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.”

    Focus on your own salvation and that of those in your own church, as you are free to do. Let the rest of us take care of ourselves.

  23. invar

    value the free exchange of ideas so much that I would gladly lay down my life to protect your right to peacefully assemble in a church, write a blog, protest in the street, and write to your government. But part of the bargain is, I want the same rights to freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and freedom to practice my religion or not practice any religion as you. You don’t seem to be willing to extend that right to me.,

    Well, you’re a liar, first and foremost.

    Did you hear me?

    I said you lie. You’re a liar.

    Why do I say that?

    You come here, onto a blog that is dedicated to the restoration of our religious heritage in this nation, and you piss on it with your insistent secular nonsense and false history.

    Contrary to your statement, you DO NOT want to grant the same rights as you demand I surrender to your sensibilities – because your purpose is to barge onto this blog with your crap and shove your own religion down our throats.

    I’m not going to your blog to insist you are full of crap or “unsaved” and engage in pointless argument in an attempt to convert you to my understanding. So I certainly do not have to extend anything to you whatsoever, but a swift foot up your back end – since you are the one sticking your finger in my face here.

    I’d just assume just cut it off.

    As I said, I don’t go onto Secular blogs and boards to ridicule and silence their beliefs like you people do. I don’t toss pearls before swine. You remind me of the the type of thugs that went into a Catholic church to denounce and shout at the parishoners about their prayers and accuse them of “intolerance” because of their stance on abortion.

    You’re exactly the same as they are.

    Your right to fling your poo ENDS at my doorstep, but somehow, you think you have a right to come in here and try shoving it in our faces.

    I find YOU morally offensive, but then, I know what spirit you are of and what you are attempting to do and why.

    You come here to MY place – and spew your offensive crap and think I have no right to hit back?

    Sorry – that doesn’t fly here. I’ll just assume filet you like the fish you are.

    I don’t want your Trojan horse olive branch, and I do not want to see your point of view, because I ALREADY used to have your point of view at one time, and REJECTED IT when I learned the Truth – your smug elitist condescension nothwithstanding.

    You are not my authority – and have no authority here – so you can toss out your bible-bingo scriptures as I have no obligation to submit to you or anyone else that tries to subjugate my liberties – because to do so requires I break the First Commandment.

    Satan was at the throne of God and uses scripture just like you did to denounce the Way and Word of God.

    So begone, and take your own advice – focus on your own secular preaching and those in your own secular community, as you are free to do.

    We can take care of ourselves without your intrusions and secular views. They are not welcome here. We get a steady diet of it everywhere else.

    Or like the thugs I mentioned before, is the liberty you CLAIM to cherish really all about getting in our faces and shutting Christians up?

    I already know the answer. You will, in all probability, provide it for all to see.

  24. Tasida Fisher

    Sigh.

    Yeah, I’m really doing a good job of shutting you up.

    This is exactly the free exchange of ideas that I encourage. The thing is, all ideas, good and bad, go through the crucible of criticism. It’s called the market place of ideas. Here is how it works.

    You propose and idea: “I think that the United States should run itself as an explicitly Chritian nation because of x, y, and z.”

    I consider your idea and say, “no I think that is a horrible idea because of a, b, and c. I think x, y, and z are invalid because of j, k, and l.”

    Now, you have two choices at this point:

    Either come back and say, “I think you are mistaken about a, b, and c because of this and that and the other thing, and here are my criticisms of j, k, and l.” Then other people read about both of our ideas and make up their own minds. They may even come back with their own insights.

    Or you dismiss me out of hand, hurl insults at me, misrepresent my possition, accuse me of limiting your right to free speech, call me names, and don’t bother to form any reasonable answer to my criticisms.

    Of course, you are free to do either. It is apparent the choice you have taken. But pay attention right now to what it is doing to your credibility. Some reasonable person who reads this blog, and may normally be sympathetic to your position, is going to think to himself or herself, “invar sure is answering this person with a lot of vitriol. But she has made some valid points, and he hasn’t answered them. He just seems to want to shut her up. Exactly what is he trying to hide? His ranting also are riddled with grammerical and spelling mistakes. Is this person really that intelligent?”

    (I’m assuming that you are male. I’m sorry if I’m wrong, but offering to fillet me like a fish is not very lady like.)

    The right to free speech does not include the right to not be insulted, or offended, or to have your ideas go uncriticized. Its all well and good that you do not comment on blogs that you disagree with. I, however, think it is my civic duty to engage in conversation with people I disagree with. Coming here and criticizing your blog does not interfere with you writing it, nor does it interfere with you believing what you want to believe. Equating that with yelling over a preacher is just dishonest. Please, write more! It is dominionist ideolouges like you that convinced me that freethinkers like me do need to speak up and have our voices heard.

    Now, for my next trick, I wil hand your ass to you on a platter.

  25. invar

    Thanks for doing exactly what I knew wannabe elite tyrants like yourself always do.

    This is my blog – and you have no authority to come here and make demands or suggestions that are not invited.

    Neither are you invited to crash a church service to scream at the churchgoers that they are delusional because you think yourself enlightened in your Atheism.

    But that’s what you have done, and that’s what you think you have the freedom to do in the name of liberty.

    So you’re a thug that makes breaking and entering a crusade.

    The answers to all your bogus charges are located in detail here at this blog.

    You are not interested in debate anyway, you are a liar. You want to shove your own religious views of secularism down our throats – and that’s not going to happen here.

    I’m not going to engage a fool in a meaningless debate where no minds are going to be changed, because I know what your game is here.

    I’m simply showing my readers exactly what people like you are, and how to deal with agitators and tyrants like yourself.

    You cut them down. You don’t give them the opportunity to get in your face, and when they do – you waste them.

    You have free speech on your own blog, your own house, your own business, on whatever forum you are welcome – you do not have the freedom to come into my home here and make demands that I give you a pulpit to spew your misguided, erroneous and Satanic garbage.

    You are not about live and let live as you have so excellently demonstrated.

    You are an insistent tyrant-wannabe, and Christianity is your enemy that you want to shout down and silence by the very actions you have engaged in here.

    That is what tyrants like you are all about – forcing yourself and your atheist religion upon those of us that reject it, and then you lecture us about how we are infringing on your free speech.

    You just admitted that you think it is your civic duty to get in the faces of those you disagree with. You just admitted the very charge leveled at you.

    You’re just too stupid to recognize that.

    You think coming into our private residences and forums to get in our face is “speaking up” – it’s not. It’s thuggish bullying and attempted intimidation.

    That’s the mark of a bully and a tyrant – and since you broke into my home here – and made demands and threatened – like anyone in the meat world that would be stupid enough to break into my place and attempt to hold my family hostage – you are hereby terminated from this blog, with extreme prejudice.

    In the meatworld, your freedom to get in my face ends at my doorstep.

    Thugs that would be stupid enough to bust into my home… well, that is what the Second Amendment is for.

  26. kbailey

    Fillet her like a fish??

    If you’re a christian and up on your bible shouldn’t you threaten to “stone her with stones until she is dead” or “burn her with fire?” Or perhaps you feel emasculated and and should cut off her hand (Deut 25:11,12)

    Do you feel that your responses exemplify a christian philosophy?

    Ask yourself, what would Jesus say?

    Whatever forum you choose to exercise your freedom of speech in you must be prepared for rebuttal. That’s the nature of free speech. To claim that your blog is akin to your house is a stretch.
    Purely for your education (as I will not call you a liar, simply misinformed) there certainly are “people like you” who post maliciously and very confrontationally on secularist blogs.
    I spend a lot of time on a university campus and about once a week someone confronts me and tries to hand me a bible or engage me in an unsolicited conversation about my salvation. That is their right, I don’t hold it against them. It’s annoying, but, a small price to pay for my freedoms. I ask you (rhetorically) when is the last time a person in a public place tried to hand you a secularist tome? Don’t pretend that the religious are silent in their faith and that the secularist pounds at them from all angles trying to convert them. Conversion isn’t our game. We are happy to let anyone practice their faith as they see fit as long as:
    1. Governments stay neutral in all regards. No money, no preferential treatment, nothing.
    2. No one is harmed in the practice of your faith (i.e. no child marriage, genital mutilation, etc.).
    3. You do not interfere with anyone’s liberties in any way.
    4. Public policies enacted by the legislature must be defensible on secular terms. That is to say that because not everyone’s interpretation of the texts they hold sacred are the same those texts are invalid as sources of truth on which to pass laws.
    That’s about it. Follow that and we are all happy!

    The specific problem with the prison ministries programs like the one in Newton IA was that prisoners were given incentives to participate in the program. There were better living quarters and more relaxed rules for prisoners participating in the program. This was preferential treatment for christians above non christians by the government. The prison is a government agency. That was unacceptable. The fact that the government was funding a program that was explicitly religious was also unacceptable. The judges ruled so on both counts.

    One last note:
    Every time I hear a conservative call someone an “elitist” what I understand is “that person is smarter than me so I don’t like them” or “that person likes smart people and I’m not smart so I don’t like them”

    I’ll save you the trouble, I am an elitist.

  27. invar

    I’ll save you the trouble, I am an elitist.

    Yes, the hubris condescension of your kind towards those of faith is at least admitted to here.

    If you’re a christian and up on your bible shouldn’t you threaten to “stone her with stones until she is dead” or “burn her with fire?” Or perhaps you feel emasculated and and should cut off her hand (Deut 25:11,12)

    Cutting off the legs of her ability to argue and spew the nonsense here, and cutting her off from the blog here is sufficient.

    We don’t toss pearls before swine here.

    Do you feel that your responses exemplify a christian philosophy?

    It exemplifies MY philosophy. I wish the rest of Christianity would grow a backbone in this country and stop rolling over for you secularists when you infringe upon and abolish their rights to free exercise, and hit back even harder than I do.

    Ask yourself, what would Jesus say?

    Something comparable to Matthew 23:13-14 towards those of you “elitists” engaged in perverting and abolishing the right of the people to free exercise of religion.

    Whatever forum you choose to exercise your freedom of speech in you must be prepared for rebuttal. That’s the nature of free speech. To claim that your blog is akin to your house is a stretch.

    Only to ‘Elitists” and thugs that think our private property is open for you people to invade and insist upon preaching your erroneous, false and bogus garbage when you are uninvited.

    You have the freedom of speech to speak on your own blogs, your own homes, your own venues. You do not have any rights where you are not welcome or invited. It’s that simple.

    But that is not what you people are about now is it?? You are engaged in waging a war on those of faith, cloaking it under the guise of ‘reasonable debate’ and throwing false revisionist history and bogus facts to tear down our religious foundations or the faith of our Founders.

    If I choose not to debate you fools on my blog – you demand to deprive me of my own generosity to do what I choose with my own property??

    Who are the tyrants here? The ones attempting to lecture me that I have to give you a platform to ridicule and argue your secularist pap on my forum, or the fact I call you secularists what you are??

    I spend a lot of time on a university campus and about once a week someone confronts me and tries to hand me a bible or engage me in an unsolicited conversation about my salvation.

    There’s a huge difference between asking a question about one’s faith in public, and barging into a church to scream aloud that the churchgoers are all delusional for believing in God, and attempting to ban the free exercise of faith because you people are ‘annoyed’ that Christians exist and believe what they do.

    That is their right, I don’t hold it against them. It’s annoying, but, a small price to pay for my freedoms.

    Your freedoms and liberty would not exist were it not for Christianity, and the Christianity of our Founders. The liberty we have in America is ROOTED in the morality of the bible and the Christian religion.

    I ask you (rhetorically) when is the last time a person in a public place tried to hand you a secularist tome?

    This morning.

    Don’t pretend that the religious are silent in their faith and that the secularist pounds at them from all angles trying to convert them.

    Then why come here to denounce and attack this blog’s message and mission??

    No, you are not about conversion as much as you people are about silencing religious exercise and people of faith, ultimately making it criminal – as I have read your fellow secular compatriots proudly announce.

    Conversion isn’t our game.

    No, abolishment is.

    Every time I hear a conservative call someone an “elitist” what I understand is “that person is smarter than me so I don’t like them” or “that person likes smart people and I’m not smart so I don’t like them”

    I’ll save you the trouble, I am an elitist.

    You people are so full of yourselves it’s hilarious.

    We do not think you elitists are smart at all.

    In fact we are of the opinion of Romans 1:20-22 in regards to you people:

    For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

    So no – I do not think you people smart.

    I think you are deluded fools filled with vain reasonings which have darkened your hearts.

    And in exchange you worship and preach the vain reasoning of men, trade the truth for lies, and worship the creation rather than the Creator.

  28. Jastiger

    Just..wow. I really thought I would see an interesting discussion between two different points of view on what is apperantly a very hot topic for you. Instead I see the (I think) writer of the blog standing on a soap box smashing anyone who dares raise their hand to contest his point.

    I agree with what the person above said, you have literally destroyed any credibility you may have had, no matter how strong your case.

    In regard to this point about the prison program for Christians, I feel the judges ruled correctly. Just because one prisoner beleives in a certain faith should not allow them additional benefits on behalf of the tax payer. I can say with almost absolute certainty if there were an atheist program in the prison funded by the Department of Corrections, we would have you and every other religious faction up in arms over the beneficial treatment of these “non-beleivers”.

    Try to look at it from both points of view and weigh your options carefully. St. Thomas Aquinas was a religious scholar who wrote some amazing works about philosophy and faith based ideals. While you may not agree with everything he said, he managed to balance his faith with reason and you should try to do the same.

  29. invar

    I understand you secularists have merely marshaled yourselves on whatever fora you meet in to descend upon the blog here to rant – but as I stated earlier – I am not sending my readers to go and blast your blogs and forums – yet you people think it is okay to rant on this one and DEMAND that we have to weigh and consider your points of view.

    NO WE DON’T. You people already have the media and the secular society you have constructed to carry your water for your religion that you are attempting to dominate the country with instituting by the pound of a gavel.

    You’re tyrants making such demands that we have to consider the views of foolish idiots.

    All the arguments and information to counter your nonsense is located in this blog’s entries. William J Federer has posted a lengthy essay with notes and facts on the charge that Washington was a Deist.

    We do not need to consider your views anymore, because we have been inundated with them for decades, and we’ve proven them false, bogus and wanting.

    Your ideology is directly responsible for the decadence, evil and woe that our society is dealing with.

    Before the Secularists got God and Prayer out of school – the worst problems teachers dealt with were talking out of turn and chewing gum. Today, thanks to the secular push to eradicate the free exercise of religion, public schools have beatings rapes, murders, drugs and mass shootings.

    And the school system is just a microcosym of the nation at large suffering the fruits of the Secular agenda to rid Christianity from the public square.

    As to the prison ministries judgement – it’s instructive that only Christian ministries are being targeted here, but the Islamic and yes Secular ministries are untouchable.

  30. Anastasia

    Looks like Christians aren’t too good to go into places screaming and interrupting people. Or too good to enforce their views on everyone and generally make people who don’t agree with them miserable. Strange, I thought it was just those damn commie atheists who did that.

    Senate Prayer Protesters Barred From Returning To Capitol Grounds

    Three fundamentalist Christians who disrupted a prayer by a Hindu religious leader in the U.S. Senate July 12 have been barred from the U.S. Capitol for one year.

    At a hearing Sept. 11 before Washington, D.C., Superior Court Judge Robert Rigsby, the protestors were told charges against them will be dropped if they stay away from the Capitol and its grounds for 12 months.

    The trio – Ante Pavkovic, his wife Katherine Pavkovic and their daughter Christan Renee Sugar – disrupted a prayer by Rajan Zed, a Hindu chaplain from Nevada who had been invited to open the day’s proceedings.

    As Zed was preparing to deliver his invocation, three protestors started shouting from the visitors’ gallery.

    “Lord Jesus, forgive us, Father, for allowing a prayer of the wicked, which is an abomination in your sight,” the protestors screamed. They were removed by Capitol Police and charged with disrupting Congress, a misdemeanor.

    The three had been in the nation’s capital to lobby against a hate-crimes bill that would extend certain protections to gay people. (The Pavkovics and their daughter are all residents of North Carolina.) They called themselves “Christian patriots,” and their actions were hailed by some Religious Right activists.

    Zed quickly recovered his composure and finished the invocation. He later told Church & State that he received many positive messages after the prayer and that some people were apologetic about the interruption.

    The Rev. Flip Benham, head of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Save America, announced that the trio would be defended in court by Roy Moore, Alabama’s infamous “Ten Commandments judge.”

    In fact, a Moore associate, Ben DuPre, represented the three on behalf of Moore’s Foundation for Moral Law. Although Benham told supporters in an e-mail message that Moore “has volunteered to come along side and represent these three Christians in court,” Moore did not appear during the proceedings.

    Religious Right groups blasted Senate leaders for inviting Zed.

    “No one can legitimately challenge the fact that the God America refers to in the pledge, our national motto and other places is the monotheistic God of the Jewish and Christian faith,” said Family Research Council President Tony Perkins. “There is no historic connection between America and the polytheistic creed of the Hindu faith.”

    The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is also still harping on the prayer and using the incident to promote its “Christian nation” views. Two months after Zed’s appearance, the Baptist Press ran a story headlined “Hinduism influence on the rise.” It quoted N.S.R.K. Ravi, director of the SBC’s North American Mission Board’s Evangelism Response Center.

    “The god Rajan Zed represented is a different god,” Ravi, a former Hindu, told the Baptist Press. “The prayers he offered are not to the God of the Bible. The god Rajan Zed represented is powerless. He cannot forgive sin, therefore he leaves the sinner to the fate of karma and reincarnation and endless human suffering.”

    Ravi noted that before his prayer, Zed sprinkled some water from the Ganges River, which Hindus consider sacred.

    “The holy water he sprinkled on the Senate floor was from the land of India, which means the god is limited to a specific region of the universe,” Ravi added. “He is not the God of the universe. What is next? Prayers to Satan? Pagans? Dead spirits? Prayers to atheists?”

  31. invar

    Those of you secularists who have decided to wage your crusade here from the forum you congregate at are making my point about you perfectly clear.

    Those of you – thinking you’re cute – by pretending to be Christians, feigning agreement with me, only to go and suggest killing people who are not Christians – can stop your stupid attempt to portray the faithful as genocidal maniacs.

    Not going to fly here.

    Such posts will be deleted on sight.

    Since God and morals do not exist with you people – it’s illustrative what lengths to lie and misrepresent you will go to in order to push your secular agenda.

  32. Nathan

    Invar, first, please remember that by hosting comments on your website, you are inviting discussion.

    Second, your claim that freethinkers have no morals is unfounded. Ask any freethinker.

    “Before the Secularists got God and Prayer out of school – the worst problems teachers dealt with were talking out of turn and chewing gum. Today, thanks to the secular push to eradicate the free exercise of religion, public schools have beatings rapes, murders, drugs and mass shootings.”

    This is a clear example of correlation without causation. Also, Andew Kehoe anyone?

    “As to the prison ministries judgement – it’s instructive that only Christian ministries are being targeted here, but the Islamic and yes Secular ministries are untouchable.”

    There is a difference between providing a prayer rug upon request and paying $140,000 for an involuntary attempt to convert prisoners.

    “We do not need to consider your views anymore, because we have been inundated with them for decades, and we’ve proven them false, bogus and wanting.”

    No you haven’t.

    “You think coming into our private residences and forums to get in our face is ‘speaking up’ – it’s not. It’s thuggish bullying and attempted intimidation.”

    Invar, the only threats of violence in this thread are yours.

    “So you’re a thug that makes breaking and entering a crusade.”

    “breaking and entering”? This is a public forum.

  33. invar

    please remember that by hosting comments on your website, you are inviting discussion.

    Discussion, yes. At my discretion.

    Not spamming an agenda of ridicule and derision being launched from whatever secularist board your kind is congregating at and coming from.

    Second, your claim that freethinkers have no morals is unfounded. Ask any freethinker.

    I’m not going to waste my time asking “freethinkers” (Atheists) anymore than I’d be asking Satan whether or not he believes in morals.

    Morals as this society had established, defined and enshrined them come from God and biblical principles, something you people denounce and reject. So there’s no point in debating morals with people who have no clue what they are talking about.

    The fruits of the secular and Godless society you “freethinkers” have helped establish by ridding the culture and the public square of God and Religious Principle and Exercise is self evident.

    This is a clear example of correlation without causation. Also, Andew Kehoe anyone?

    Your efforts to inject intellectual gobbledeygook to cloud the plain truth of what has been charged will not fly here. The fruits of the secular society you people have already helped construct condemn you with clarity. You can try to deflect it with semantical banter designed to cloud the facts all day long.

    There is a difference between providing a prayer rug upon request and paying $140,000 for an involuntary attempt to convert prisoners.

    Bullpuckey.

    YOU PEOPLE are the ones attempting to ban Bibles from being handed out upon request, yet say nothing about Islamic programs that are funded and instituted – along with dietary and other demands to cater to Islamic faith – but Christians in prison can go shut up in solitary as far as you people are concerned.

    Why do you have to lie like you people do?

    Oh that’s right – you have redefined morals to match your own twisted view of morality.

    If Islamic programs that ultimately work towards conversion are seen as programs to rehabilitate criminality, then Christian programs are just as viable as they are.

    But not according to you people.

    “breaking and entering”? This is a public forum.

    No, it’s a private residence that is open to the public on my terms, and by my rules.

    I have and retain the right to post what I want to say in my own residence, and allow public comments and guests at my discretion.

    You people have no “public right” to come here and spew an agenda that this blog considers hostile and anathema to our cherished principles if I decide not to allow it. I have and retain the right, in my own residence here, to police, delete and otherwise ban comments per my discretion.

    No different than a church would have the right to escort a bunch of protesters from disrupting and shouting down a service.

    We are not sending people to your blogs in a mass effort of intimidation and spam to harass you, ridicule you, bully you, make death threats, etc., etc.

    But that is what your secular compatriots are engaged in.

    In fact, they thought it was cute to pose as “devout Christians” pretending to agree with my sentiments, citing biblical verses – only to make direct threats of violence and death on others as some kind of example of what you secularists charge Christians as being.

    Problem is, that they were stupid. They left their IP and trackback URL’s to the secular forums they came from that posted the link to this blog at.

    So, there’s an agenda being waged by you secularists to shut up and silence Christianity – yet you claim the opposite – and dmeand in the name of “free speech” to shout down and ridicule those of faith.

    Not going to happen here. This Christian fights back – and I do not hesitate to eviscerate those spewing what I consider the Satanic agenda.

    And I will do so, because this is my place, my residence and liberty still means something in the face of you tyrant wannabe’s.

  34. Sid

    Alright, I tried to stay off this forum like you wished, but the stupid, unsubstantiated charges you are lobbing at us just got the better of me.

    “In fact, they thought it was cute to pose as “devout Christians” pretending to agree with my sentiments, citing biblical verses – only to make direct threats of violence and death on others as some kind of example of what you secularists charge Christians as being.”

    -I assume you are talking about this:

    “If you’re a christian and up on your bible shouldn’t you threaten to “stone her with stones until she is dead” or “burn her with fire?” Or perhaps you feel emasculated and and should cut off her hand (Deut 25:11,12)”

    It’s called sarcasm. Look it up.

    Seriously, grow a brain.

  35. invar

    No, but that was one of the lesser inciting replies.

    And no – it’s not sarcasm – it’s a plain damnable lie.

    Trying to pass yourselves off as Christians and calling for the deaths of other people is not sarcasm – it’s bearing false witness. You might have heard of it once before. Christians and Jews call it lying.

    But then, since morality is in the eye of the beholder with you people, I guess like the Jihadists – it is permissible to lie to infidels and or the religious “non free-thinkers” out there to achieve the ends via despicable means.

    Now, run along and make sure you tell your pals over on the Secularist forum that are monitoring this blog entry, how incapable of understanding your brand of “sarcasm” we are here.

  36. Sid

    Oh, wait! I remember. There was one particular post. I don’t remember much about it, but I remember it started out expressing great shock at how angry you sound. I think it started out with, “Wow! Just, wow!” And his name linked to the ISU Atheist and Agnostics Society web page.

    It was clearly a post from a secularist. Of course, I can’t prove it conclusively now, since *somebody* deleted it. I guess it’s your word against mine.

    Better watch what you say; God doesn’t take too kindly violation of the seventh commandment. I’m sure he would heartily approve of you cutting off my finger (at the wrist!).

    And just to keep things honest, just because I made a reference to your God, that doesn’t mean I’m a Christian.

    P. S. :
    “Now, run along and make sure you tell your pals over on the Secularist forum that are monitoring this blog entry, how incapable of understanding your brand of “sarcasm” we are here.”

    To clear up any misunderstanding here, are you trying to be clever by using sarcasm? THAT would be ironic- good show! (But is it really fair to expect us to understand your sarcasm when you won’t understand ours?) Or are you really just that stupid that you can’t understand sarcasm?

  37. Sid

    Oops! Lying violates the 9th commandment, not the seventh! My bad.

    Seventh is either stealing or killing. Or is it commiting adultery? I don’t know. It’s too late at night for me to go fetch my bible.

  38. Nathan

    “Discussion, yes. At my discretion.”

    You have made it clear that you have deleted comments you found offensive, and that the comments that remain are there so your readers can see how both sides conduct themselves in debates. Please stop complaining about content you choose to host.

    “I’m not going to waste my time asking ‘freethinkers’ (Atheists) anymore than I’d be asking Satan whether or not he believes in morals.”

    Freethinkers include Deists, agnostics, atheists, humanists, and others. They are not all atheists, and they are certainly not all satanists.

    “Morals as this society had established, defined and enshrined them come from God and biblical principles, something you people denounce and reject. So there’s no point in debating morals with people who have no clue what they are talking about.”

    Many freethinkers have influenced the moral climate of this nation, including Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Immanuel Kant, Thomas Paine, Susan B. Anthony, Abraham Lincoln, and Fredrick Douglass. In addition, “Christian” morals can be found in numerous mythologies and texts that predate Christianity. Finally, you will find that freethinkers have studied moral systems and philosophies to a greater extent than dogmatic individuals. I realize that in your case, you have studied other philosophies, but remember that most of us have too. Please do not insult us.

    “Your efforts to inject intellectual gobbledeygook to cloud the plain truth of what has been charged will not fly here.”

    Allow me to clarify the term “correlation without causation” for you. Suppose my boss calls me to her office and gives me a bonus. I thank her and go home. The next day I come down with the flu. It would be folly to blame my boss for my illness. The two events were correlated (one happened after the other), but my bonus did not cause my sickness. In 1963 Abington v. Schempp struck down mandatory religion in public school, but there is no evidence that this caused the 1990’s spike in school violence.
    It is far more likely that the spike was caused by the media frenzy after Kevin Duschenchuk shot a classmate in 1992. Copycat shooters likely wanted similar attention, prompting their crimes.
    Oh, and Andrew Kehoe was the perpetrator of a school bombing in 1926. He was a Roman Catholic.

    “YOU PEOPLE are the ones attempting to ban Bibles from being handed out upon request…”

    No we aren’t. We don’t want government workers forcing bibles into prisoners’ hands.

    ” …yet say nothing about Islamic programs that are funded and instituted – along with dietary and other demands to cater to Islamic faith …”

    If you mean that we approve of allowing free practice of Islam anywhere in the USA, including prisons, then that is true. If you mean that we approve of forcing Islam, or any other religion, on prisoners, then that is false.

    “If Islamic programs that ultimately work towards conversion are seen as programs to rehabilitate criminality, then Christian programs are just as viable as they are.”

    Yes, and neither should be government funded.

    “No, it’s a private residence that is open to the public on my terms, and by my rules.”

    Still not breaking and entering. What did I have to break to enter?

    “I have and retain the right to post what I want to say in my own residence, and allow public comments and guests at my discretion.”

    Go right ahead.

    “I have and retain the right, in my own residence here, to police, delete and otherwise ban comments per my discretion.”

    Go right ahead. If censorship is how you want to defend freedom of speech and religion, I cannot stop you.

    “In fact, they thought it was cute to pose as ‘devout Christians'”

    I didn’t do that, and the 13-year-old who did should get off his mother’s computer and go back to bed.

    By the way, you dropped your point about bullying and intimidation. And then threatened to eviscerate me.

  39. invar

    Please stop complaining about content you choose to host.

    No, there is no complaining except by your compatriots about “free speech” to spam their agenda and views on my blog that are not welcome.

    Many freethinkers have influenced the moral climate of this nation, including Thomas Jefferson, John Adams….

    Right “Freethinkers” (non Christian) like John Adams??

    “Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the Foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?” – John Adams

    You might wish to read more of Adams before attempting to suggest he was a Deist/Agnostic/Atheist – whatever.

    I have said this before to those that try and tell me that morality is relative. Morality, as Western Culture defines it, is rooted in the bible and from God Almighty. Morality found OUTSIDE of those origins, is simply the tyranny and precepts of men constructed for social order.

    So when people try and tell me that the “moral and Religious People” Adams was referencing in regards to the maintenance of the Constitution were Deists, Agnostics and Atheists – I laugh at the absolute ignorance of such statements.

    Allow me to clarify the term “correlation without causation” for you.

    It was a valiant, but erroneous and failed attempt.

    You are trying to defend the indefensible. The indictment of the secular culture your ideology has worked hard to promote IS IN FACT a direct and contributing causation to the devolution into criminality and immorality this society has sunk into.

    You can play word and psychology semantics to your heart’s content, the exclusion of God and religious principles in the public square has led directly to the immorality, criminality and violence in both the public schools and in the public square.

    Banning the bible and prayer from school established the atmosphere and fertilized the ground for the school violence we see today. Criminal violence and all the sundry woes in public education are the bitter fruits of the secular agenda in our schools and in the nation.

    Washington warned us of this simple principle in his Farewell Address:

    “Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle”. – George Washington

    We don’t want government workers forcing bibles into prisoners’ hands.

    You people make me laugh. Right – the government workers are putting guns to the heads of prisoners and forcing them to take donated bibles and to read them.

    But even so, it’s revealing that the secularists are so eager to remove and ban any attempts to encourage or teach recidivist criminals the religious principles that would lead them to productive lives. What secularism demands is that people should be free of God and religion – even if it means they remain enslaved to immorality and criminality.

    If you mean that we approve of forcing Islam, or any other religion, on prisoners, then that is false.

    If someone is handing out Qurans – I think a prisoner is free to either accept or reject it, is he not?? Suggesting that handing out bibles or Qurans is “forcing religion” on prisoners is just plain silly and stupid.

    “If Islamic programs that ultimately work towards conversion are seen as programs to rehabilitate criminality, then Christian programs are just as viable as they are.”

    Yes, and neither should be government funded.

    Right, but hey government-funded abortions are a Constitutional right dontcha know.

    Religious funding = evil. Murdering the unborn = righteousness.

    Yeah, we get what the deal is.

    Still not breaking and entering. What did I have to break to enter?

    Again – do you people think you have a right to barge into a church, or a home and say whatever you want?

    If censorship is how you want to defend freedom of speech and religion, I cannot stop you.

    Oh please, stop illustrating that you have no real understanding of the Constitution or our liberty.

    You have the freedom to speak where you are welcome, or on your own blog, or your own venues. I’m not using the government or armies of lawyers and the courts to ban, infringe or abolish your ability to speak there.

    That is something you folks are engaged in doing to Christians.

    By the way, you dropped your point about bullying and intimidation. And then threatened to eviscerate me.

    It’s not bullying or intimidation when I’m in my own house and someone thinks they can get in my face on my own porch. It’s as stupid as a burglar that cries he was bullied by the homeowner who put a shotgun to his nose after busting into his place.

    As to evisceration – my replies have left your empty arguments quite disemboweled.

  40. Wow, the government actually tries to recognize that Christianity ISN’T the only faith in America. WHAT A THOUGHT.

    Honestly, grow up. Your faith is supposed to be one of peace and brotherhood, why is it too much to ask that you ACT LIKE IT?

  41. brandi

    god rock if u dont belive then ur weriod he is awsome

  42. Boomer

    Sir,

    Are you Ante Pavkovic posting these rants? You sure do sound like that loose canon.

  43. Mikeharvey

    Hey, from Toronto, Canada

    Just a quick hello from as I’m new to the board. I’ve seen some interesting posts so far.

    To be honest I’m new to forums and computers in general🙂

    Mike

  44. Dear Brother/Sister,

    Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ.

    I am Somie Saleem, from Pakistan. Urdu and Punjabi are the biggest languages of this country. I visited your website and impressed by your work. I have one suggestion regarding booklets, sermon, tracks, and Bible studies and recording, it would be good, if these will be available in native languages in Urdu and Punjabi. Reaching out to the people in their own languages is very helpful, affective and fruitful. If your ministry is interested and willing to reach unreached and untold in Pakistan with the materials in native languages, I can arrange to translation for messages, bible studies, biblical tracks, books and also Urdu page on your ministry website. Our all services will be provided with reasonable rates and whatever we get we use it to spread the word of God.

    Would please to hear from you.
    With prayers
    Somie Saleem
    Pakistan

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